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#81 Ian

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:41 AM

I was raised Christian (Catholic) and was probably the best Sunday School student that came through my parish in years. I went to mass every Sunday, read the Roman Catholic Bible, the King James Bible, and even a bit of a few translations of the Torah and the Koran. I'm finishing up my degree in the Biological Sciences at the University of Notre Dame, and Theology classes were a required course to graduate, so I took an advanced Theology course studying both modern and ancient world religions.

I'm now an atheist - not because I don't believe in the underlying prinicples of most major religions (peace, love, kindness, etc.), but rather because of all the contradictions, fallacies, and inaccuracies inherent to every religion. I live a lifestyle that follows a morality that does not need religion to operate, and I've never been happier in my life.

Instead of going to a church to kneel at a pew, bow my head, hold my hands together, eat a thin wafer of bread, and sip wine, I now spend my Sundays volunteering at the local hospital or nursing home, and instead of donating money to my old church I give it to secular non-profit organizations, especially those dealing with Malaria and AIDS in Africa (I did a lot of biological research at ND).

I understand that for many people, religion is all they have - it is their reason that they wake up in the morning and are able to get through the day, the reason they can live in a world that has given them much hardship or sadness, and that's not something I want to take away from people. For that reason I never try and shove my convictions down other people's throats, and that is why I absolutely detest when religious people try and get people to join their church or solicit money or new members. I simply do not need religion to be happy, and I would much rather follow a path of science and a quest for knowledge over the upholding of outdated or questionable traditions.

Having said that, whenever I encounter someone who is willing to have a civil and open-minded debate I am happy to discuss with them why I went from being a very religious Christian to a free-thinking moral atheist.

Here is an example of a conversation I had with a friend of mine from RS a while back:

This is long, but do not take it as bitter or condescending in any way. I respect all religions who positively affect the world in which we live. Having said that, brace yourselves. XD

One thing I find somewhat frustrating is that the vast majority of people who claim to be religious are simply the same religion as their parents, or the religion most common in the geographic region in which they were born. If you were born in Afghanistan, you would undoubtedly be Muslim, while if you were born in China, there's a good chance you would be non-religious. Most people who profess a religion have absolutely no idea what the differences are between other "rival" religions, and have never bothered to find out. It's interesting that historically atheists and agnostics consistently have a greater understanding of the specifics of religions and generally more religious knowledge, answering more religious questions correctly than religious people themselves. This is probably because atheists and agnostics tend to be people who grew up in a religious tradition and consciously gave it up, often after a great deal of reflection and study.

Here's a few questions to consider:
1) Modern humans have been around for ~25,000 years and experienced more suffering and hardship than many of us can ever imagine. Why would God wait 23,000+ years to send Jesus to save us from our sins? Did he not care about early humans? What about Neanderthals, and other earlier human ancestors?
2) The Divine Watchmaker Theory. Could it be possible we are simply looking at the universe as we would look at a watch? Watches are very complex, and as such when we see a watch we automatically assume it was created by something or someone and could never arise due to random chance. However, recent experiments have proven that the amino acid building blocks that form all life CAN spontaneously arise on their own under the conditions Earth existed in millions of years ago.
3) Why did Jesus appear in the Middle East? Why did China, Japan, North America, Australia, etc. not get to hear about him until hundreds of years later? Could the story of Jesus perhaps have been nothing more than the product of the people living in the Middle East combined with the stories of the past?
4) Speaking of the stories of the past, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all borrow heavily from ancient civilizations, as well as pagan religions. "Baal and Mot," two ancient entities signifying God and Death/the Devil, existed long before the big three religions, and many of the stories and ideas in the Bible, Koran, and Torah are taken directly from the ancient Ugaritic writings of Baal and Mot. Further similarities exist, such as the concept of "halos" derived from Egyptian sun discs, the pagan idea of placing their sins on a donkey and leading him out into the desert to die as a sacrifice to take away those sins was directly translated into Christianity.
5) The Bible itself is rife with passages that suggest it was written not by God, but by people living 2,000 years ago, in the context of people of that time. While many passages are very well written and promote many excellent ways to live your life, many others promote slavery, bigotry, genocide, torture, and revenge, among other wonderful things.

In the end, I believe people misunderstand many religions that they are not familiar with - even the lack of a religion. I've met many people in my day who do not practice any religion and would consider themselves atheists, yet they have consistently shown that they can be better people than many Christians, Jews, and Muslims I've seen in this world. Morality can exist without needing to be defined by any one particular religion (see Sam Harris's "worst possible suffering for everyone" idea), and I've seen many moral people that are not Christian.

If God really is omniscient and omnipotent, he knows the future and also has the power to do whatever he wants. As such, I find it odd that he would knowingly condemn 2/3 of the human population simply because they do not follow the correct religion. There is also a ton of suffering in this world. Many people die at very young ages from freak accidents - is that all part of God's plan? What if God was omniscient, but really just powerless to do anything about it? Or what if God was omnipotent, but doesn't know the future or just didn't care? Or what if he doesn't exist at all in the way we are all brought up to believe? Whichever it is, I know that a truly loving God would save anyone who lives their life in a positive manner, doing more acts of good than acts of evil. I would rather spend eternity in an afterlife with an atheist who did countless acts of kindness and was a positive force for helping others on Earth rather than with someone who was evil, self-centered, or any number of other terrible things, yet "confessed his sins and repented" on his death bed. But that's just me.

There are a lot of religions in this world, and I definitely find some more silly than others, but if their core tenants and beliefs don't harm other people and generally act as a positive force in the world, who am I to say that people shouldn't keep practicing them? Even if some of them get get labeled as evil or hypocritical atheists for doing so.


Ian, you really made me think. Sad to say, a lot of what you say is true, especially the first few paragraphs. Something I noticed among Christians specifically; the ones who were not raised that way, but converted later in life tend to be more devoted than cradle Christians (no offence to any, especially Jen, who's sincere). Sadly, I've met "Christians" who don't even get that you're supposed to love everyone and even called the act foolish. People are social animals and like being part of a group, and some won't even know what their group is about. Theological beliefs play a big role in a person's life and if you wish to join one, AT LEAST know the basics, be it Christianity, Islam or Atheism. So, thanks again, sir; you won my respect because you were able to argue intelligently without attacking.


Edited by KCCO, 25 June 2012 - 09:42 AM.

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#82 Guthix jr

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:07 PM

Humans killed Jesus who willingly gave his life. Jesus could of easily stopped it all if he wanted.


That isn't what i meant. God killed jesus, "Romans 8:32"
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#83 Risegold

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:19 AM

That isn't what i meant. God killed jesus, "Romans 8:32"


Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Matthew 26:53

I think Jesus let himself die for us.

#84 Guest_Cave King1_*

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:34 AM

Born Catholic, raised Christian. I beleive in god, but not the creation. We make our own choices, beleifs, and mysteries. :)

#85 Zealot.

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 07:13 PM

I am not very religious at all, because i don't see a lot of evidence which will lead me to believe God is real or was involved in creation.

If we had enough sufficient evidence to prove God is real, maybe i would believe, however i dont agree with some teachings from religions.

I respect anyone who believes in Religion and God, because all it is , is faith, and people should respect everyone's faith. It always makes me sad when some people are too ignorant to respect each others faith.

#86 DJ Phox

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:31 PM

There's a reason why this topic did not exist before you made it. Religion is what I call one of the forbid subjects for conversation. You just don't bring that kind of thing up because unless it is with someone of = beliefs, you or someone else is going to get upset and the turn out will not be pretty. politicts is another one and have have a topic for that which has gone kind of sour. some of us agree with eachother, others do not and those that do not agree are not happy campers.

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#87 Risegold

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:57 AM

There's a reason why this topic did not exist before you made it. Religion is what I call one of the forbid subjects for conversation. You just don't bring that kind of thing up because unless it is with someone of = beliefs, you or someone else is going to get upset and the turn out will not be pretty. politicts is another one and have have a topic for that which has gone kind of sour. some of us agree with eachother, others do not and those that do not agree are not happy campers.


This is life, you will have to deal with conflicting opinions alot in your life, no real need to avoid it

edit: spelling

Edited by Risegold, 29 July 2012 - 12:57 AM.


#88 Greg

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 01:04 AM

There's a reason why this topic did not exist before you made it. Religion is what I call one of the forbid subjects for conversation. You just don't bring that kind of thing up because unless it is with someone of = beliefs, you or someone else is going to get upset and the turn out will not be pretty. politicts is another one and have have a topic for that which has gone kind of sour. some of us agree with eachother, others do not and those that do not agree are not happy campers.


If this topic had got out of hand, a mod would have stopped it. They haven't, so let's assume it's all fine. If you can't have a debate about a belief without offending someone, then you're doing it wrong.
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#89 Ubernisation

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:07 PM

Just to add my own viewpoint.

I was loosely raised christian (as in all my family identify as christian but don't actively participate) but I identify as atheist. I'm as sure god doesn't exist as I am that any other manmade creature does. I can't believe in god, or any of the (for the lack of a nicer term) supernatural elements of religion. I just feel the concept of religion was originally created to deal with problems mankind couldn't fathom or explain, and that religion proliferated down the years and became an amalgam of so many other things.,I also have a problem with the hereditary nature of religion and think people should be allowed to make their own choice and not be brought up in a faith by their parents- neither should parents preach a lack of faith, the individual should be free to explore their own spirituality.

Despite these problems with religion I'm not against it like most people expect me as an atheist to be. Although I disagree with the organisation and tenants of religion, I fully accept what an amazing and good impact it can have on a persons life. I think for an individual it can mean a lot to them and do a lot for them- even if I feel I know what they believe is wrong, it doesn't change what their belief does for their life. I think I'd be a happier and better person if I were deeply religious- it's just something I never can be. But I've been to Catholic and Muslim religious worship just to try and understand and get it. I'm fully supportive of religion in an individuals life, even if I'm not of the organisation and beliefs.

So basically I'm a bit confused XD

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#90 Doc

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:30 PM

I'm actually a Catholic, but I'm not one of those people who believe that the entire world/Earth was created in 6 days. I don't believe that humans just popped out of nowhere. While I do believe in God, I also believe in science.

Take evolution for example. The true notion of evolution is not that monkeys were the ancestors of the human species, but rather that humans and monkeys shared a common ancestor eons ago; that the true ancestor of the human species were ape-like creatures. Over time genetic mutations happened and through the process of natural selection, in which species that have the genes fit for survival remain in existence while others go extinct, caused the refinement of the ape-like species and eventually the modern day humans came into being.

I also don't believe that the Bible is 100% true. There may be some truth in there, but I don't believe that it's infallible. I don't know much about religion, but my guess is that stories of Jesus's miracles and other biblical stories were passed down generations after generations, or from different people to people, until the actual original author(s) of the Bible heard the stories and actually wrote it down. But along the way, like many stories that's been passed down from people to people, the stories that are found in the Bible have been distorted along the way and may have strayed a little from the original context.

That is just my personal opinion. If others disagree with my point of views, then it's their opinion.
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#91 DJ Phox

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 05:06 PM

I also don't believe that the Bible is 100% true. There may be some truth in there, but I don't believe that it's infallible. I don't know much about religion, but my guess is that stories of Jesus's miracles and other biblical stories were passed down generations after generations, or from different people to people, until the actual original author(s) of the Bible heard the stories and actually wrote it down. But along the way, like many stories that's been passed down from people to people, the stories that are found in the Bible have been distorted along the way and may have strayed a little from the original context.


that was the most inteligent thing i have heard from a religious person (not meant as an insult to you) ever... you think logicaly while so many others think what they are told. good job thinking for yourself. there's no probleming bieng religious and believing in god... but gosh people how much evidence do you need...

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#92 Greg

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 08:32 AM

that was the most inteligent thing i have heard from a religious person (not meant as an insult to you) ever... you think logicaly while so many others think what they are told. good job thinking for yourself. there's no probleming bieng religious and believing in god... but gosh people how much evidence do you need...


Religion is not just a case of believing what you are told. There are many streams of religion - orthodox, liberal etc. who all believe different things. It's also a matter of how you're brought up - if you're brought up being told the bible is true or something of that nature, you are less likely to question it than someone who is more free to believe what they want.
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#93 Ubernisation

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:02 AM

Whether someone is religious or not is irrelevant to them just following what they're told- it's all down to the individual. What does it matter if you're blindly following what a priest is telling you or what a journalist, a television personality, a family figure etc is telling you. Blind obedience is just the idiocy of an individual, not the idiocy of religion.

I do have a slight problem with people taking the bible as metaphorical though- I find it to be double standards to a large degree. I believe the original authors of the bible most likely intended for it to be read as a wholly factual and literal. I've read quite a lot of texts written around the time of the New Testament and there's not much metaphor or allegory to be found there- maybe in the romantic poets but we can hardly equal the bible to a romantic poet can we!? I think as we progress and parts of the bible becomes more outdated and more ridiculous when compared with what we know now compared to what we knew then people keep claiming more and more of the bible is metaphorical. I feel it should be read not with modern interpretation but with the intended interpretation at it's time of conception?
Also another annoyance is the amount of Christians who haven't actually read the bible! None of my Christian friends have read the whole of the new testament. Sure it's a long read, about a 1000 pages- but that's what, the size of 3 novels? For something so fundamental to ones life I find it baffling they haven't actually read the book.

@Doc, think you're kinda incorrect there. The New Testament is mostly held to have been written in the 1st century AD- around 70 AD seems to be the most common dating for the core bits? Jesus died around 30-35 AD right? So that's only 35-40 years later. The earliest writer, Saint Paul lived through the life and death of Jesus. So these weren't tales handed down over generations- at most the bulk of them came 40 years later- enough time that there would have been very little distortion in the facts. Also the 1st century AD was a very literary culture- these wouldn't just have been folk tales told by grandma to grandkid, but would have been recorded as well. So basically you have to take the tales of Jesus as being the literal and what the author knows to have happened- they didn't have the time for a great mythology to build up around it as with the likes of the Trojan War or something. Also acts of Jesus are referred to (albeit briefly) in other non biblical sources by pagan authors. So yeah, it sounds nice to say it was just a distorted truth passed down over generations- but that just isn't fact.

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#94 CapuDie

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:29 AM

I'm not sure if you ppl ever played the game where you sit in a circle and the first person tells a story to his neighbour without anyone else being able to hear it. The story gets passed on to the next and so forth. By the time it reaches the last person, the difference in the story is astonishing.

What I'm trying to say here is that the bible was translated by people. They might've interpreted things differently.and as such created differences in the story.
This little circle meeting thing only takes a few 'translations' to be changed and it's not like it even happened when there were cultural differences involved...

So yeah, I do think that the bible is a bit distorted and for my humble opinion, you'd be dumb to believe it to the letter...
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#95 Ubernisation

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:44 AM

I'm not sure if you ppl ever played the game where you sit in a circle and the first person tells a story to his neighbour without anyone else being able to hear it. The story gets passed on to the next and so forth. By the time it reaches the last person, the difference in the story is astonishing.

What I'm trying to say here is that the bible was translated by people. They might've interpreted things differently.and as such created differences in the story.
This little circle meeting thing only takes a few 'translations' to be changed and it's not like it even happened when there were cultural differences involved...

So yeah, I do think that the bible is a bit distorted and for my humble opinion, you'd be dumb to believe it to the letter...


By translated by people do you mean god's word translated, or just translated in terms of language? If the former then that's a fundamental difference between an atheist and a religious person- I believe all religion and everything contained in it is manmade. If you mean the latter then we have ancient Greek fragments from the 2nd-3rd century AD- and copying texts down without translation has minimal room for mistakes. I think we have enough ancient Greek fragments surviving from the 4th century AD and earlier to make up most of the New Testament- so any later mistakes after that date can be discounted as they can be compared to our fragments.
I'm not saying what we have is exactly the original writings- but I doubt it's significantly different so as to change the meaning in most cases. Transmission of texts down the years does lead to mistakes and problems- but I'd be relatively confident in the veracity of the New Testament- I mean there's loads of Plato's work remaining and you'd expect lots of changes and bastardisations down the years- but what remains has a consistent character and set of viewpoints and teachings that are shared and harmonious over dozens of surviving texts.
But yeah, basically it is an issue but not a big enough issue to use as an excuse for the inaccuracy or whatever of the Bible.

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#96 kilvehk

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:49 AM

uber as i just said on another thread if you belive the bible to be litteral and you have read the whole of it then you would know that adam had two wifes. Genesis mentions woman being created twice once from the earth at the same time as man and once from adams rib after man already existed after doing more research while it is not directly in the bible the general consensus is that this first woman was lillith she is mentioned several times throughout history in several documents including the dead sea scrolls and the story goes that she was cast out from the garden for refusing to lie beneath adam. in which case god is a sexist. now i ask you what kind of god is a sexist hmm? moreover what kind of god sets his children up for failure, if he was truly omniscient he would have known exactly what would happen if he put the tree of knowlage in the garden. many people claim it was a test but knowing the results of a test prior to the test being performed renders the test pointless. so why would he put it there if he knew it would hurt us?


also how can you claim that the bible has not changed when it is known the priests during the dark ages would frequently rewrite the bible to serve their own porpuses? for that matter how can you claim that religion is good for humanity when historicly religion was the root cause of most of humanitys darkest eras and bloodiest wars? hell even hitler was driven by religion and in fact was an avid collector of christian artifacts as well as to a lesser extent other major religions. the crusades, the spanish inquisition, the dark ages, 9/11 all had their basis in religion as well as many more. so again how the hell is religion good for humanity? i refuse to belive that people NEED a higher power to belive in just to keep them sane.

Edited by kilvehk, 29 September 2012 - 04:07 AM.


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thanks for the sig brandon!

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#97 DJ Phox

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 01:16 PM

Jesus died around 30-35 AD right?


ummm... isn't that what bc and ad stand for... before christ and after death.... so 327 ad would stand for 327 years AFTER death....

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#98 Doc

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:10 PM

Actually, AD stands for anno domini, which stands for "The year of our Lord".
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#99 kilvehk

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:42 PM

ummm... isn't that what bc and ad stand for... before christ and after death.... so 327 ad would stand for 327 years AFTER death....


that is a common misconception that has been pushed by the chuch most scholars prefer to use C.E. which stands for "the common era"

Edited by kilvehk, 29 September 2012 - 07:46 PM.


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thanks for the sig brandon!

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#100 Colors

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:48 AM

Religion is just something to occupy time, if you're crazy about religion you'll go to church, and waste time reading the "book of lies".

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